Discussion:
new: OSGeo women mailing list
(too old to reply)
Anne Ghisla
2009-11-15 12:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Hello all, and sorry for cross-posting,

Wolf Bergenheim and I are happy to announce the creation of OSGeo-women,
a new mailing list dedicated to discussion around women in OSGeo
projects. The idea is born as a collaboration with Systers, the world's
largest email community of technical women in computing [0].

Discussions will focus on OSGeo members who wish to involve more women
in OSGeo projects. Any input for discussion and sharing of ideas as well
as project collaboration is welcome, as well as successful case
studies.
The list is opened to OSGeo members of either gender.

best regards,

Anne Ghisla and Wolf Bergenheim

[0] http://www.anitaborg.org/initiatives/systers
Landon Blake
2009-11-16 18:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Anne,

I hope things work out with the new mailing list. I know at least one of
the open source software projects I am involved with has discussed the
problem of encouraging the participation of more women.

Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658



-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Anne Ghisla
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:03 AM
To: OSGeo Discuss; Systers+new+osgeo-***@public.gmane.org
Cc: Jennifer Redman; Selena Deckelmann; Jeffries,Robin
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list

Hello all, and sorry for cross-posting,

Wolf Bergenheim and I are happy to announce the creation of OSGeo-women,
a new mailing list dedicated to discussion around women in OSGeo
projects. The idea is born as a collaboration with Systers, the world's
largest email community of technical women in computing [0].

Discussions will focus on OSGeo members who wish to involve more women
in OSGeo projects. Any input for discussion and sharing of ideas as well
as project collaboration is welcome, as well as successful case
studies.
The list is opened to OSGeo members of either gender.

best regards,

Anne Ghisla and Wolf Bergenheim

[0] http://www.anitaborg.org/initiatives/systers


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
Tyler Mitchell
2009-11-16 19:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Landon Blake
I hope things work out with the new mailing list.
Same here - I'm sure just having a place to connect with others will be encouraging for all involved.
Post by Landon Blake
I know at
least one of
the open source software projects I am involved with has
discussed the
problem of encouraging the participation of more women.
It's interesting to hear this called a "problem" - I thought all open source projects welcomed all people who were interested.  Unless of course there are jerks like in Ian's cartoon - but then again, the cartoon also presents a solution :-)
Landon Blake
2009-11-16 19:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Maybe my statement was misunderstood?



I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed what we
might do to encourage the participation of more women in the project. I
think there was recognition across the board that the project would have
benefited from more diversity.



I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in math and
science could be combined with encouraging them to try volunteering with
an OSGeo project?



Landon

Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268

Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658





________________________________

From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:44 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
I hope things work out with the new mailing list.
Same here - I'm sure just having a place to connect with others will be
encouraging for all involved.
Post by Landon Blake
I know at
least one of
the open source software projects I am involved with has
discussed the
problem of encouraging the participation of more women.
It's interesting to hear this called a "problem" - I thought all open
source projects welcomed all people who were interested. Unless of
course there are jerks like in Ian's cartoon - but then again, the
cartoon also presents a solution :-)



Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
Tyler Mitchell
2009-11-16 20:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Landon Blake
Maybe my statement was misunderstood?
I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed what we
might do to encourage the participation of more women in the
project. I
think there was recognition across the board that the project
would have
benefited from more diversity.
I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in
math and
science could be combined with encouraging them to try
volunteering with
an OSGeo project?
Hi Landon,

I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one. Some of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when in reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested in.

Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be optimal.

It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from my wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it on :-)

Best wishes,
Tyler
Landon Blake
2009-11-16 20:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Tyler,

I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to
conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because
there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.

A possible response to your wife's argument is that our society tends to
condition women for certain types of roles, and that we steer them away
from careers in math or science. I don't know if this is true, but I can
tell you I see the same lack of women in surveying and engineering as I
do in software development. I don't have any daughters, but I have a
couple nieces. It seems my younger niece, who is currently a freshman in
high school, doesn't get much encouragement to think about math and
science careers, although I think she has the brains for it. Her older
brother, who is a senior in high school, is being encouraged to pursue a
degree in mechanical engineering or a technical job in the United States
Air Force.

This in just one small example of what may be a larger trend in the way
we view our children, at least in the United States.

If our society is guilty of this bias in the way we raise, train, and
teach our daughters, then some conscious effort to correct this bias is
probably not inappropriate.

I'm sure your wife and others have a response to this argument as well.
If nothing else, I think this is a good conversation to have.

Hopefully I did not just open Pandora's Box. :]

Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658



-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Mitchell [mailto:tmitchell.osgeo-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:51 PM
To: Landon Blake
Cc: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
Maybe my statement was misunderstood?
I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed what we
might do to encourage the participation of more women in the
project. I
think there was recognition across the board that the project
would have
benefited from more diversity.
I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in
math and
science could be combined with encouraging them to try
volunteering with
an OSGeo project?
Hi Landon,

I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one. Some
of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a
wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when in
reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested
in.

Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just
assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people
that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be
optimal.

It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from my
wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it on
:-)

Best wishes,
Tyler


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
Tyler Mitchell
2009-11-16 22:07:09 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the discussion Landon.  I'll leave Pandora well enough alone :)

Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with OSGeo.   I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more participate.

1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects?
2 How can we be more inviting?  Have you heard negative comments from potential members?  Are there any reasons you might not invite a colleague to join?
3 How can we encourage more people to contribute to our projects or join  with the OSGeo mission? 
4 What areas in OSGeo and its projects need more helpers?

5 What are the most interesting/compelling aspects?

I'm sure there are more pointed questions but these are just off the top of my head.

Best wishes,
Tyler


----- Original Message -----
From: Landon Blake <***@ksninc.com>
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:01 pm
Subject: RE: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
Tyler,
I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems
reasonable to
conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because
there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.
....
Mateusz Loskot
2009-11-16 22:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the discussion Landon. I'll leave Pandora well enough
alone :)
By the way, Debian has a well established female user base:

http://women.debian.org/

Best regards,
--
Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net
Charter Member of OSGeo, http://osgeo.org
Miles Fidelman
2009-11-16 23:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tyler Mitchell
Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or
perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with
OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect
others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more
participate.
1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects?
Getting paid tends to be a big one.

Seriously. Most of the successful open source projects I'm familiar with involved salaries or other work-related support.

- University researchers working on grants (Apache)

- Students working on thesis material (Linux)

- IT staff developing software as part of their work, then open sourcing the software as a way to reduce ongoing support costs (Sympa)

- Corporate developers open sourcing code to expand a user base (Erlang)

- Government contractors working working on an SBIR contract (one of our current projects)

- etc.

Labors of love are fun, but ultimately most people have to pay the bills.

I guess that leads to a central question: What are the day jobs of the core developers associated with OSGeo projects, to what extent are those developers paid to work on the projects, and what are the business reasons of their employers for doing so?
--
Miles R. Fidelman, Director of Government Programs
Traverse Technologies
145 Tremont Street, 3rd Floor
Boston, MA 02111
mfidelman-NT1X+RKBS/1tdF/***@public.gmane.org
857-362-8314
www.traversetechnologies.com
Landon Blake
2009-11-16 23:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Miles,

I think your questions about the day jobs of OSGeo contributors would
make a great online poll or survey. It would be interesting to get a
look at that data.

Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658



-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Miles Fidelman
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 3:20 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Post by Tyler Mitchell
Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or
perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with
OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect
others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more
participate.
1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects?
Getting paid tends to be a big one.

Seriously. Most of the successful open source projects I'm familiar
with involved salaries or other work-related support.

- University researchers working on grants (Apache)

- Students working on thesis material (Linux)

- IT staff developing software as part of their work, then open sourcing
the software as a way to reduce ongoing support costs (Sympa)

- Corporate developers open sourcing code to expand a user base (Erlang)

- Government contractors working working on an SBIR contract (one of our
current projects)

- etc.

Labors of love are fun, but ultimately most people have to pay the
bills.

I guess that leads to a central question: What are the day jobs of the
core developers associated with OSGeo projects, to what extent are those
developers paid to work on the projects, and what are the business
reasons of their employers for doing so?
--
Miles R. Fidelman, Director of Government Programs
Traverse Technologies
145 Tremont Street, 3rd Floor
Boston, MA 02111
mfidelman-NT1X+RKBS/1tdF/***@public.gmane.org
857-362-8314
www.traversetechnologies.com

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss-***@public.gmane.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
Frank Warmerdam
2009-11-16 23:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miles Fidelman
Post by Tyler Mitchell
Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the real or
perceived barriers people, in general, find to getting involved with
OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers women would have might also affect
others, so it might be useful to broaden the discussion so more
participate.
1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects?
Getting paid tends to be a big one.
Seriously. Most of the successful open source projects I'm familiar
with involved salaries or other work-related support.
- University researchers working on grants (Apache)
- Students working on thesis material (Linux)
- IT staff developing software as part of their work, then open sourcing
the software as a way to reduce ongoing support costs (Sympa)
- Corporate developers open sourcing code to expand a user base (Erlang)
- Government contractors working working on an SBIR contract (one of our current projects)
- etc.
Labors of love are fun, but ultimately most people have to pay the bills.
I guess that leads to a central question: What are the day jobs of the
core developers associated with OSGeo projects, to what extent are those
developers paid to work on the projects, and what are the business
reasons of their employers for doing so?
Miles,

Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing
to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and MapServer
is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and
MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of
the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them.

I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on
specific features into broader involvement with the projects and
OSGeo in general.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmerdam-e+***@public.gmane.org
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush | Geospatial Programmer for Rent
Andrea Aime
2009-11-17 09:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Warmerdam
Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing
to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and MapServer
is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and
MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of
the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them.
I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on
specific features into broader involvement with the projects and
OSGeo in general.
I believe the idea that OSGEO projects contributor tend to be paid
to work on the project itself is the result the very selection
criteria to become an OSGEO project:
- mature project
- established user base
- a formal governance model

This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people
that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility
of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality.
Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people
that can find funding to work on the project itself.

Also, being estabilshed, it will have some barriers to entry in terms
of the code base size and complexity itself, and QA processes that
will make it harder to just look at the project for a weekend, cook up
something, give it back and disappear.

I guess one of the challenges for projects in OSGEO is exactly that:
how do we create easy contribution opportunities that can be tackled
with limited effort by people interested in contributing a weekend
and/or just get a little involved in the community?

Cheers
Andrea
--
Andrea Aime
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.
Helena Mitasova
2009-11-17 14:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrea Aime
Post by Frank Warmerdam
Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing
to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and MapServer
is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and
MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of
the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them.
I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on
specific features into broader involvement with the projects and
OSGeo in general.
I believe the idea that OSGEO projects contributor tend to be paid
to work on the project itself is the result the very selection
- mature project
- established user base
- a formal governance model
This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people
that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility
of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality.
Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people
that can find funding to work on the project itself.
Also, being estabilshed, it will have some barriers to entry in terms
of the code base size and complexity itself, and QA processes that
will make it harder to just look at the project for a weekend, cook up
something, give it back and disappear.
how do we create easy contribution opportunities that can be tackled
with limited effort by people interested in contributing a weekend
and/or just get a little involved in the community?
GRASS add-ons with limited SVN access seem to work well in this
regard - we
got a lot of good contributions and it is a good place for students
to submit their work as well. The most useful add-ons eventually make it
into the main GRASS code,

Helena
Post by Andrea Aime
Cheers
Andrea
--
Andrea Aime
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Landon Blake
2009-11-17 15:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Andrea,

You wrote: "This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of
people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the
possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality.
Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that
can find funding to work on the project itself."

I'm curious about how we get a project to the point you describe. That
seems to be an even greater challenge.

Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658



-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Aime
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:51 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Post by Frank Warmerdam
Certainly all of the above tend to apply to many people contributing
to OSGeo projects. Certainly the bulk of my work on GDAL, and
MapServer
Post by Frank Warmerdam
is client funded. I know that most of the contributors to GDAL and
MapServer have at least some of their time funded. Likewise many of
the other projects though my knowledge gets thinner on some of them.
I think one challenge is to get people who have funded time to work on
specific features into broader involvement with the projects and
OSGeo in general.
I believe the idea that OSGEO projects contributor tend to be paid
to work on the project itself is the result the very selection
criteria to become an OSGEO project:
- mature project
- established user base
- a formal governance model

This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of people
that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the possibility
of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality.
Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people
that can find funding to work on the project itself.

Also, being estabilshed, it will have some barriers to entry in terms
of the code base size and complexity itself, and QA processes that
will make it harder to just look at the project for a weekend, cook up
something, give it back and disappear.

I guess one of the challenges for projects in OSGEO is exactly that:
how do we create easy contribution opportunities that can be tackled
with limited effort by people interested in contributing a weekend
and/or just get a little involved in the community?

Cheers
Andrea
--
Andrea Aime
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss-***@public.gmane.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
Miles Fidelman
2009-11-17 16:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Landon Blake
Post by Andrea Aime
I believe the idea that OSGEO projects contributor tend to be paid
to work on the project itself is the result the very selection
- mature project
- established user base
- a formal governance model
You wrote: "This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of
people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the
possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality.
Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that
can find funding to work on the project itself."
I'm curious about how we get a project to the point you describe. That
seems to be an even greater challenge.
History has some good lessons to teach:

i. A lot of these projects start with a strong motivation and financial
backing - be it a funded r&d project, a piece of code written for
internal purposes, or what have you. Like any development project, good
design and good project management count for a lot.

ii. At some point, someone makes a decision to make code available.
This may be informal (a researcher putting some code on their web site
for people to play with), or more formal (a group or company making a
deliberate decision to open source some code - for marketing reasons, to
try to recruit additional development/support at low/no cost).

iii. A critical step has to happen organically: People have to
download and start using the software, and enough people have to find it
useful that a critical mass develops. Until this point is reached,
there's not a lot of need or point to talking about governance models
(except, perhaps, in making a decision about what license to release the
code under, and in providing some visibility to get people interested in
playing with the code)

iv. Once (if) a critical mass emerges, the issue of governance pretty
much forces its way onto the field. People start asking "who's behind
this code? is it stable? is it mature? is it supported?" and so forth -
and the initial development group is well advised to think long and hard
about things like: who holds the copyright (does someone need to
incorporate a non-profit, will the Apache foundation adopt the
software), where to locate the CVS tree, governance structure (both for
technical and policy decisions), and so forth.


Seems to me that the keys to getting to the point Andrea describes are:

1. someone has to write some code and then make it available and visible

2. a critical mass of people have to find it useful

3. either the initial authors, or a group of motivated users, have to
build an initial ecosystem (CVS site, email lists, etc.) - I mention
"motivated users" because quite a few open source projects are forks of
other projects (Apache is a fork of the NCSW daemon, the various BSD and
Linux distributions, etc.)


Having said this, there are times when this isn't quite as organic. For
example:

1. a government agency issues a solicitation to develop a piece of code,
attaching some conditions associated with release and support as open
source (one of our current projects falls in this category)

2. a group of users/developers sets out to work jointly to develop a
mutually needed piece of code (though I can probably name more failures
of this model than successes - IMHO all-volunteer efforts tend to die
pretty quickly unless one or two people are really driving things, and
have a pressing need to do so - otherwise, higher priority activities
tend to pull people away)

3. a commercial firm sets out to develop code on a hybrid
open-source/commercial business model - there are some good examples of
this (Aptana comes to mind), but I've seen a lot more of these start
with some university developed code (Xen comes to mind)


Where OSGeo is concerned: It certainly seems that several projects have
reached this point (GeoServer, PostGIS for example). I guess it would
be interesting to figure out how many users each have, who has
commercial businesses that are dependent on them, and so forth. Those
would be obvious targets for recruiting both funding and people to flesh
out the developer base (akin to IBM putting a lot of support behind
Apache - for the simple reason that their Websphere product line is
based on Apache).

Miles
--
Miles R. Fidelman, Director of Government Programs
Traverse Technologies
145 Tremont Street, 3rd Floor
Boston, MA 02111
mfidelman-NT1X+RKBS/1tdF/***@public.gmane.org
857-362-8314
www.traversetechnologies.com
Andrea Aime
2009-11-17 16:51:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Landon Blake
Andrea,
You wrote: "This tells me the project has lots of contributors, lots of
people that have a stake on it, a big enough user base that the
possibility of funding is no more a pipe dream but a solid reality.
Such a project by its very nature will tend to attract more people that
can find funding to work on the project itself."
I'm curious about how we get a project to the point you describe. That
seems to be an even greater challenge.
If there was a recipe we would not see that many failed open source
projects ;-)

However someone wrote a book to help:
http://producingoss.com/

Mind, the book will save people from obvious mistakes, and our course
you need technical talent too, but past that, imho the personalities of
the people involved (treating a project as a pile of code instead as a
group of people is another common mistake imho), dedication, good timing
and even just luck are really playing the difference between success and
failure.

Cheers
Andrea
--
Andrea Aime
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.
Agustin Diez Castillo
2009-11-17 10:37:32 UTC
Permalink
There are tons of articles about women and science since more than 20 years ago I will recomend a look to Longino (1987) [1].
[1] http://www.jstor.org/pss/3810122
Post by Landon Blake
Tyler,
I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to
conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because
there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.
A possible response to your wife's argument is that our society tends to
condition women for certain types of roles, and that we steer them away
from careers in math or science. I don't know if this is true, but I can
tell you I see the same lack of women in surveying and engineering as I
do in software development. I don't have any daughters, but I have a
couple nieces. It seems my younger niece, who is currently a freshman in
high school, doesn't get much encouragement to think about math and
science careers, although I think she has the brains for it. Her older
brother, who is a senior in high school, is being encouraged to pursue a
degree in mechanical engineering or a technical job in the United States
Air Force.
This in just one small example of what may be a larger trend in the way
we view our children, at least in the United States.
If our society is guilty of this bias in the way we raise, train, and
teach our daughters, then some conscious effort to correct this bias is
probably not inappropriate.
I'm sure your wife and others have a response to this argument as well.
If nothing else, I think this is a good conversation to have.
Hopefully I did not just open Pandora's Box. :]
Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:51 PM
To: Landon Blake
Cc: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
Maybe my statement was misunderstood?
I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed what we
might do to encourage the participation of more women in the
project. I
think there was recognition across the board that the project
would have
benefited from more diversity.
I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in
math and
science could be combined with encouraging them to try
volunteering with
an OSGeo project?
Hi Landon,
I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one. Some
of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a
wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when in
reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested
in.
Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just
assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people
that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be
optimal.
It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from my
wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it on
:-)
Best wishes,
Tyler
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Brian Russo
2009-11-17 13:30:04 UTC
Permalink
I find the underlying bias of this discussion itself fascinating. Landon is
right that surveying/engineering is male-dominated; yet nobody complains
that nursing is female-dominated. I have to wonder what really is the
problem? Money aside - what's inherently wrong with fewer women in
math/science? Surveyors are more important to our society than kindergarten
teachers? Tough argument to make IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I know gender discrimination still exists, but I wonder
if we're so eager to solve a problem (being tech people that's what we do)
that we lose sight of what the goal is. I go to economic development
presentations and people talk about developing tech jobs etc. What they're
really talking about is developing jobs that make more money and are less
resource-intensive - after all green is the new black. That said, there are
lots of skilled, well-paying careers that aren't manufacturing nor easily
outsourced yet aren't math/science. So I'm not so much being critical as I
am confused at the real purpose.

As tech people that's a bias that is really hard for many of us to recognize
we even have. Some of us forget that there are other people out there with
rich, fulfilling lives that can barely turn on a computer. Welding for
example - if you're an amazing welder you can make a ton of money - and some
people certainly enjoy it. Or sales. Yeah I dislike talking to tech
marketing people on the phone too - but who am I to say their job is wrong
for them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should raise a generation of
waitresses and receptionists because it was the lazy choice - but at the
same time we need to overcome our own bias of non-tech fields as being
inherently inferior and encourage proper valuation of all roles in society.

After all, it's arrogant to tell people what should be important for their
lives. I've known people that basically decided all they wanted to do in
their life is surf so they just live in a tiny apartment and make furniture
on the side so they can do what they love. Who am I to tell them that my
life is better? Because I make more money? I have a nicer cellphone? Big
deal - if I hated my life that wouldn't matter. You only get one life so you
gotta live it in a way that makes you happy. You can throw statistics into
it like growth expectations, salary, etc.. At the end of the day most of us
will spend more time working than any other task in our lives, so if you're
not enjoying what you're doing then you're doing it wrong.

I don't have kids but I do work with youth a lot, fortunate to have some
amazing kids and you know I try to avoid telling them what to do - I just
try to help them discover their options and their value system. If they all
decided to go into retail and lead happy lives it'd make no difference to me
than if they all became neurosurgeons or aeronautical engineers. I genuinely
do not care and do not think it matters - as long as they get the best
opportunities to choose for themselves and lead fulfilling lives. One 17yo
girl for example wants to start a restaurant. Another is starting off in IT
at Heald. So somehow the second person is "better"? I just don't understand
a mindset like that. Does not compute.


As for the original task of "how to encourage more women into these fields"
(which I'm for, I just don't think it's a problem if they all choose not to)
- well I think that Cornell study [1] is a good starting point for anyone
that wants to understand one glance at it. A lot of the family-building
aspect for example is related to how we prioritize work/life balance in the
US. If you look at other countries like many in Europe they have far more
family friendly cultures/laws with better maternal/paternal leave options
[2], etc. Our FMLA in the US is a joke compared to what you can get in
France, Sweden, etc - and I think it really speaks volumes about what we
consider to be important in our lives.

That said, I don't know how this really is specific to osgeo in particular.
It may be better served under a broader focus of GIS for Women, Open Source
for Women.. etc. I guess I'm curious what sort of goals are set. University
recruitment? Encouraging female OS developers in general to engage in OSGeo?
I'm a bit lost on the intent.

- bri


1. Women’s Underrepresentation in Science: Sociocultural and Biological
Considerations - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1352218.pdf
2.
http://www.apesma.asn.au/women/maternity_leave_around_the_world.asp#Americas
Post by Agustin Diez Castillo
There are tons of articles about women and science since more than 20 years
ago I will recomend a look to Longino (1987) [1].
[1] http://www.jstor.org/pss/3810122
Post by Landon Blake
Tyler,
I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to
conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because
there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.
A possible response to your wife's argument is that our society tends to
condition women for certain types of roles, and that we steer them away
from careers in math or science. I don't know if this is true, but I can
tell you I see the same lack of women in surveying and engineering as I
do in software development. I don't have any daughters, but I have a
couple nieces. It seems my younger niece, who is currently a freshman in
high school, doesn't get much encouragement to think about math and
science careers, although I think she has the brains for it. Her older
brother, who is a senior in high school, is being encouraged to pursue a
degree in mechanical engineering or a technical job in the United States
Air Force.
This in just one small example of what may be a larger trend in the way
we view our children, at least in the United States.
If our society is guilty of this bias in the way we raise, train, and
teach our daughters, then some conscious effort to correct this bias is
probably not inappropriate.
I'm sure your wife and others have a response to this argument as well.
If nothing else, I think this is a good conversation to have.
Hopefully I did not just open Pandora's Box. :]
Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:51 PM
To: Landon Blake
Cc: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
Maybe my statement was misunderstood?
I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed what we
might do to encourage the participation of more women in the project. I
think there was recognition across the board that the project would have
benefited from more diversity.
I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in math and
science could be combined with encouraging them to try
volunteering with
an OSGeo project?
Hi Landon,
I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one. Some
of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a
wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when in
reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested
in.
Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just
assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people
that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be
optimal.
It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from my
wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it on
:-)
Best wishes,
Tyler
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against
defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this information in error, please notify the sender
immediately.
Post by Landon Blake
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Chris Puttick
2009-11-17 14:36:45 UTC
Permalink
I'm trying so hard to stay out of this one, but then I read a blog that seemed to have some value to the discussion...

http://community.managementtoday.co.uk/blogs/ladygeek/archive/2009/11/16/technology-is-it-different-for-girls.aspx

Cheers

Chris


------
Files attached to this email may be in ISO 26300 format (OASIS Open Document Format). If you have difficulty opening them, please visit http://iso26300.info for more information.
Landon Blake
2009-11-17 15:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Bri wrote: "I'm not saying we should raise a generation of waitresses
and receptionists because it was the lazy choice - but at the same time
we need to overcome our own bias of non-tech fields as being inherently
inferior and encourage proper valuation of all roles in society."



I agree with your perspective on this 100%. I would argue most surveyors
make a rather modest living. I entered the profession not for the money,
but because I enjoyed drawing maps and wanted the chance to work
outdoors.



I didn't mean to imply that people in technical professions are somehow
better than those in non-technical professions. I just think we
sometimes limit people because of our preconceived ideas about there
abilities. I study the bible with a young man who has Autism. Most
people expect very little from him. However, the young man has the most
amazing ability to remember of any person I have ever met in my life. I
am always trying to push him to do more, because I believe he is capable
of more than society expects.



My main point is that we should encourage more diversity in our
professions. Software development and land surveying would benefit from
more women, and nursing would likely benefit from more men. (Ironically,
I have a good friend that is in school for nursing right now, and he is
a man.)



I believe having a diverse profession can ultimately lead to new
approaches to problems and new solutions. When I think about the small
company I work for, I realize diversity is an asset, and something we
could use more of. One of the things I have enjoyed about OpenJUMP is
the opportunity to work with people from all around the world. People
that spell color as "colour" instead of "color". :]



Landon



________________________________

From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Brian Russo
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:30 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list



I find the underlying bias of this discussion itself fascinating.
Landon is right that surveying/engineering is male-dominated; yet nobody
complains that nursing is female-dominated. I have to wonder what really
is the problem? Money aside - what's inherently wrong with fewer women
in math/science? Surveyors are more important to our society than
kindergarten teachers? Tough argument to make IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I know gender discrimination still exists, but I
wonder if we're so eager to solve a problem (being tech people that's
what we do) that we lose sight of what the goal is. I go to economic
development presentations and people talk about developing tech jobs
etc. What they're really talking about is developing jobs that make more
money and are less resource-intensive - after all green is the new
black. That said, there are lots of skilled, well-paying careers that
aren't manufacturing nor easily outsourced yet aren't math/science. So
I'm not so much being critical as I am confused at the real purpose.

As tech people that's a bias that is really hard for many of us to
recognize we even have. Some of us forget that there are other people
out there with rich, fulfilling lives that can barely turn on a
computer. Welding for example - if you're an amazing welder you can make
a ton of money - and some people certainly enjoy it. Or sales. Yeah I
dislike talking to tech marketing people on the phone too - but who am I
to say their job is wrong for them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying
we should raise a generation of waitresses and receptionists because it
was the lazy choice - but at the same time we need to overcome our own
bias of non-tech fields as being inherently inferior and encourage
proper valuation of all roles in society.

After all, it's arrogant to tell people what should be important for
their lives. I've known people that basically decided all they wanted to
do in their life is surf so they just live in a tiny apartment and make
furniture on the side so they can do what they love. Who am I to tell
them that my life is better? Because I make more money? I have a nicer
cellphone? Big deal - if I hated my life that wouldn't matter. You only
get one life so you gotta live it in a way that makes you happy. You can
throw statistics into it like growth expectations, salary, etc.. At the
end of the day most of us will spend more time working than any other
task in our lives, so if you're not enjoying what you're doing then
you're doing it wrong.

I don't have kids but I do work with youth a lot, fortunate to have some
amazing kids and you know I try to avoid telling them what to do - I
just try to help them discover their options and their value system. If
they all decided to go into retail and lead happy lives it'd make no
difference to me than if they all became neurosurgeons or aeronautical
engineers. I genuinely do not care and do not think it matters - as
long as they get the best opportunities to choose for themselves and
lead fulfilling lives. One 17yo girl for example wants to start a
restaurant. Another is starting off in IT at Heald. So somehow the
second person is "better"? I just don't understand a mindset like that.
Does not compute.


As for the original task of "how to encourage more women into these
fields" (which I'm for, I just don't think it's a problem if they all
choose not to) - well I think that Cornell study [1] is a good starting
point for anyone that wants to understand one glance at it. A lot of the
family-building aspect for example is related to how we prioritize
work/life balance in the US. If you look at other countries like many in
Europe they have far more family friendly cultures/laws with better
maternal/paternal leave options [2], etc. Our FMLA in the US is a joke
compared to what you can get in France, Sweden, etc - and I think it
really speaks volumes about what we consider to be important in our
lives.

That said, I don't know how this really is specific to osgeo in
particular. It may be better served under a broader focus of GIS for
Women, Open Source for Women.. etc. I guess I'm curious what sort of
goals are set. University recruitment? Encouraging female OS developers
in general to engage in OSGeo? I'm a bit lost on the intent.

- bri


1. Women's Underrepresentation in Science: Sociocultural and Biological
Considerations - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1352218.pdf
2.
http://www.apesma.asn.au/women/maternity_leave_around_the_world.asp#Amer
icas

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Agustin Diez Castillo <adiez-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

There are tons of articles about women and science since more than 20
years ago I will recomend a look to Longino (1987) [1].
[1] http://www.jstor.org/pss/3810122
Post by Landon Blake
Tyler,
I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to
conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because
there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.
A possible response to your wife's argument is that our society tends to
condition women for certain types of roles, and that we steer them away
from careers in math or science. I don't know if this is true, but I can
tell you I see the same lack of women in surveying and engineering as I
do in software development. I don't have any daughters, but I have a
couple nieces. It seems my younger niece, who is currently a freshman in
high school, doesn't get much encouragement to think about math and
science careers, although I think she has the brains for it. Her older
brother, who is a senior in high school, is being encouraged to pursue a
degree in mechanical engineering or a technical job in the United States
Air Force.
This in just one small example of what may be a larger trend in the way
we view our children, at least in the United States.
If our society is guilty of this bias in the way we raise, train, and
teach our daughters, then some conscious effort to correct this bias is
probably not inappropriate.
I'm sure your wife and others have a response to this argument as well.
If nothing else, I think this is a good conversation to have.
Hopefully I did not just open Pandora's Box. :]
Landon
Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:51 PM
To: Landon Blake
Cc: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
Maybe my statement was misunderstood?
I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed what we
might do to encourage the participation of more women in the
project. I
think there was recognition across the board that the project
would have
benefited from more diversity.
I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in
math and
science could be combined with encouraging them to try
volunteering with
an OSGeo project?
Hi Landon,
I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one. Some
of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a
wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when in
reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested
in.
Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just
assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people
that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be
optimal.
It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from my
wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it on
:-)
Best wishes,
Tyler
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against
defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please
notify the sender immediately.
Post by Landon Blake
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss-***@public.gmane.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss





Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
Miles Fidelman
2009-11-17 16:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Landon Blake
My main point is that we should encourage more diversity in our
professions. Software development and land surveying would benefit
from more women, and nursing would likely benefit from more men.
(Ironically, I have a good friend that is in school for nursing right
now, and he is a man.)
It's really a thorny problem.

I can't speak much to cultural issues in engineering that might turn off
women. Certainly engineering professions are disproportionately
populated with those of us with crude senses of humor. On the other
hand, I've worked with an awful lot of women engineers over the years,
and the culture didn't seem to bother them (several with pretty crude
senses of humor of their own). There's certainly some self-selection
going on, but that presumably applies to guys as well.

The verdict seems to be out on whether there is selection going on based
on developmental and/or cognitive differences in male and female
brains. Again, though, I've worked with some very competent women
engineers, and I know lots of guys who can't think logically if their
life depended on it.

A somewhat clearer issue has to do with preparation for engineering
school. A while back, I spent a few years as volunteer "educational
councilor" for MIT - alumni who both interview applicants, and who do
outreach to high school students and guidance councilors. MIT has had
female students since almost the beginning, and a pretty high percentage
of female students and staff, BUT... at least when I was interviewing,
we kept running into guidance councilors who would steer girls away from
math and science classes. At a school with a very stiff math
requirement for entry, and where almost every incoming student has taken
a year of calculus in high school, that put a real dent in our ability
to recruit women. I expect this situation has gotten better, but then,
at least in our local school system, there's been a general deemphasis
on science and engineering in general - somewhat problematic in a suburb
of Boston with lots of MIT grads (and professors) living here.

Then there's the question of role models, mentors, and such. Again, I
expect this has gotten better over the years, but like senior
management, senior engineering ranks are still populated by a generation
of largely male engineers.

Whether these are issues that can be addressed at the level of a
specific project, or group of projects, is unclear. It would seem more
an issue for the academic world, professional societies, and groups like
AMITA (Assoc. of MIT Alumna).

Having said that, I'll pose the question: How many women are working on
OSGeo projects? How many are visible in the profession, and/or in
academic circles? Seems to me that the best way to attract more women
to OSGeo ranks are for the women who are already here to be highly
visible to their female colleagues.
--
Miles R. Fidelman, Director of Government Programs
Traverse Technologies
145 Tremont Street, 3rd Floor
Boston, MA 02111
mfidelman-NT1X+RKBS/1tdF/***@public.gmane.org
857-362-8314
www.traversetechnologies.com
Frank Warmerdam
2009-11-17 17:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Russo
I find the underlying bias of this discussion itself fascinating.
Landon is right that surveying/engineering is male-dominated; yet nobody
complains that nursing is female-dominated. I have to wonder what really
is the problem?
Brian,

For me the issue is that there may be a substantial under-utilized
set of women (or generalize the accessability issue also to other
underrepresented groups) who could be users and more importantly
contributors to my project, and other OSGeo projects! A goal of OSGeo
is to promote our projects to users and to encourage additional
contributors.
Post by Brian Russo
That said, I don't know how this really is specific to osgeo in
particular. It may be better served under a broader focus of GIS for
Women, Open Source for Women.. etc. I guess I'm curious what sort of
goals are set. University recruitment? Encouraging female OS developers
in general to engage in OSGeo? I'm a bit lost on the intent.
The issue may not be specific to OSGeo and OSGeo projects, but if there
are concrete steps that we could take to encourage more involvement
then it behooves us to take them. I would claim part of the role of
OSGeo is to help our projects grow by developing and inculcating better
community practices that encourage involvement and contribution.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmerdam-e+***@public.gmane.org
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush | Geospatial Programmer for Rent
Schlagel, Joel D IWR
2009-11-17 20:23:27 UTC
Permalink
In the past I've worked with students from the Women in Science Program
(WISP) at Dartmouth. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~wisp As programs such as
WISP become aware of OSGEO there are benefits for students who participate,
and an opportunity for the OSGEO community to become more widely known.

-joel
Post by Frank Warmerdam
Post by Brian Russo
I find the underlying bias of this discussion itself fascinating.
Landon is right that surveying/engineering is male-dominated; yet nobody
complains that nursing is female-dominated. I have to wonder what really
is the problem?
Brian,
For me the issue is that there may be a substantial under-utilized
set of women (or generalize the accessability issue also to other
underrepresented groups) who could be users and more importantly
contributors to my project, and other OSGeo projects! A goal of OSGeo
is to promote our projects to users and to encourage additional
contributors.
Post by Brian Russo
That said, I don't know how this really is specific to osgeo in
particular. It may be better served under a broader focus of GIS for
Women, Open Source for Women.. etc. I guess I'm curious what sort of
goals are set. University recruitment? Encouraging female OS developers
in general to engage in OSGeo? I'm a bit lost on the intent.
The issue may not be specific to OSGeo and OSGeo projects, but if there
are concrete steps that we could take to encourage more involvement
then it behooves us to take them. I would claim part of the role of
OSGeo is to help our projects grow by developing and inculcating better
community practices that encourage involvement and contribution.
Best regards,
-joel

----
Joel D. Schlagel
U.S. Army Engineer Institute for Water Resources
http://www.iwr.usace.army.mil

Ian Turton
2009-11-16 18:47:18 UTC
Permalink
http://xkcd.com/322/

well someone had to post it

Ian
--
Ian Turton

Sent from State College, Pennsylvania, United States
Bruce Bannerman
2009-11-16 22:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Tyler,

Perhaps this 'issue' is not so big after all...

A comment that was made to me by a colleague after FOSS4G-2009 was that she
thought that it was great to see such a high percentage of attendees were
female; dramatically higher than she would have traditionally seen at a
spatial / geoscience event in Australia.

She commented further that this was a good reason to get more involved...



Bruce
Post by Landon Blake
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, 17 November 2009 9:07 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Thanks for the discussion Landon. I'll leave Pandora well
enough alone :)
Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the
real or perceived barriers people, in general, find to
getting involved with OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers
women would have might also affect others, so it might be
useful to broaden the discussion so more participate.
1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects?
2 How can we be more inviting? Have you heard negative
comments from potential members? Are there any reasons you
might not invite a colleague to join?
3 How can we encourage more people to contribute to our
projects or join with the OSGeo mission?
4 What areas in OSGeo and its projects need more helpers?
5 What are the most interesting/compelling aspects?
I'm sure there are more pointed questions but these are just
off the top of my head.
Best wishes,
Tyler
----- Original Message -----
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:01 pm
Subject: RE: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
Tyler,
I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems
reasonable
Post by Landon Blake
to conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects
because there are fewer women involved in open source computing to
begin with.
....
Anne Ghisla
2009-11-16 23:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Landon Blake
Tyler,
Perhaps this 'issue' is not so big after all...
A comment that was made to me by a colleague after FOSS4G-2009 was that she
thought that it was great to see such a high percentage of attendees were
female; dramatically higher than she would have traditionally seen at a
spatial / geoscience event in Australia.
She commented further that this was a good reason to get more involved...
That's good news - but we should not miss that it's the experience of
only one person and that FOSS4G is not the perfect mirror of all OSGeo
activities.

Collecting other opinions on recent IRC chat on #osgeo, the issue is
potentially big. It's a cultural one. It is not OSGeo task to change
people's minds about women; but for sure raising awareness on known
gender discrimination in OSS is a good step forward. Looking forward for
more discussion and action on this specific topic, as well as on more
generic entry barriers.

all the best,
Anne
Post by Landon Blake
Bruce
Post by Landon Blake
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, 17 November 2009 9:07 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo barriers to entry
Thanks for the discussion Landon. I'll leave Pandora well
enough alone :)
Perhaps we can turn the thread to discussing what are the
real or perceived barriers people, in general, find to
getting involved with OSGeo. I'm sure that any barriers
women would have might also affect others, so it might be
useful to broaden the discussion so more participate.
1 What barriers are there to joining OSGeo and its projects?
2 How can we be more inviting? Have you heard negative
comments from potential members? Are there any reasons you
might not invite a colleague to join?
3 How can we encourage more people to contribute to our
projects or join with the OSGeo mission?
4 What areas in OSGeo and its projects need more helpers?
5 What are the most interesting/compelling aspects?
I'm sure there are more pointed questions but these are just
off the top of my head.
Best wishes,
Tyler
----- Original Message -----
Date: Monday, November 16, 2009 1:01 pm
Subject: RE: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list
Post by Landon Blake
Tyler,
I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems
reasonable
Post by Landon Blake
to conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects
because there are fewer women involved in open source computing to
begin with.
....
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