Discussion:
Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
(too old to reply)
Markus Neteler
2008-04-07 08:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Dear OSGeo,

I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
share concepts, source code and regression tests:

http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library

GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools
for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch.
There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc
which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and
certainly of programming language compatibility.

Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas.

Markus
--
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://www.osgeo.org/
http://www.grassbook.org/
Jeroen Ticheler
2008-04-07 10:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Markus,
I think this is a VERY good idea!! There's definitely a need for
something like this that would help to get uniform output from a
number of applications using the same markup.
Ciao,
Jeroen
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools
for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch.
There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc
which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and
certainly of programming language compatibility.
Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas.
Markus
--
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://www.osgeo.org/
http://www.grassbook.org/
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Franck Martin
2008-04-07 11:23:21 UTC
Permalink
I have noticed over the years the unmatched quality of prints from
GMT. Unfortunately GMT is not user friendly.

I also found out I print to PDF first then send the PDF to the
printer, this ensure best quality check. However I think PDF has
issues with transparency.

sent from my iPhone!
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools
for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch.
There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc
which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and
certainly of programming language compatibility.
Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas.
Markus
--
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://www.osgeo.org/
http://www.grassbook.org/
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Frank Warmerdam
2008-04-07 12:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools
for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch.
There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc
which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and
certainly of programming language compatibility.
Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas.
Markus,

There is definitely a need for better cartographic quality output options.

The wiki page did not seem to touch on cartographic surround and "map
composition" which I think is really a major whole currently. That is
putting together a product suitable for printing as a map with titles,
legends, and map surround components all appropriately and professionally
styled. I have added a brief note on this. Is this an objective of the
proposed effort?

Also, I think, it is a very important question to decide what output
format is the primary target. That is, whether the objective is to produce
products in postscript/pdf with the vector and text preserved in a
non-rasterized format. The alternative is to produce a raster product,
with us using something like AGG+freetype to render all vector and
text content as part of the process.

While I generally think making postscript/pdf our primary target
would give the most professional product, it will also likely be
harder work, and will require skills that are less common in our
developer community. If we did the direct-to-raster approach we can
build on quite a bit of AGG rendering expertise in the mapserver,
mapguide and mapnik communities for instance.

I've also suggested under programming languages that the library be
implemented in C++ but with a C API for external interface to the
library. This model has proven valuable for GDAL as a way to present
a less fragile interface to the outside world, making it easier to
keep the library less tightly bound to the calling application.

BTW, would it be an objective to be able to show the map to the user
as it is being composed? Knowing this may well affect above decisions.
For instance, if the library produces PDF this could be pretty challenging
to use in an interactive map composer application.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmerdam-e+***@public.gmane.org
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush | President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org
Arnulf Christl
2008-04-08 07:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools
for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch.
There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc
which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and
certainly of programming language compatibility.
Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas.
Markus,
There is definitely a need for better cartographic quality output options.
The wiki page did not seem to touch on cartographic surround and "map
composition" which I think is really a major whole currently. That is
putting together a product suitable for printing as a map with titles,
legends, and map surround components all appropriately and professionally
styled. I have added a brief note on this. Is this an objective of the
proposed effort?
Also, I think, it is a very important question to decide what output
format is the primary target. That is, whether the objective is to produce
products in postscript/pdf with the vector and text preserved in a
non-rasterized format. The alternative is to produce a raster product,
with us using something like AGG+freetype to render all vector and
text content as part of the process.
Hi,
coming from boring old standards land I wanted to add that we have started a change request to WMS that allows to add a resolution parameter to request for images used in high quality prints. Current discussion is focusing on a parameter called PIXEL_SIZE which will allow to request maps that have a pixel size smaller than the standard 0.28 mm (~72dpi). We don't want to miss the rise of cartography in web mapping...

Regards, Arnulf.
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
While I generally think making postscript/pdf our primary target
would give the most professional product, it will also likely be
harder work, and will require skills that are less common in our
developer community. If we did the direct-to-raster approach we can
build on quite a bit of AGG rendering expertise in the mapserver,
mapguide and mapnik communities for instance.
I've also suggested under programming languages that the library be
implemented in C++ but with a C API for external interface to the
library. This model has proven valuable for GDAL as a way to present
a less fragile interface to the outside world, making it easier to
keep the library less tightly bound to the calling application.
BTW, would it be an objective to be able to show the map to the user
as it is being composed? Knowing this may well affect above decisions.
For instance, if the library produces PDF this could be pretty challenging
to use in an interactive map composer application.
Best regards,
Landon Blake
2008-04-08 15:29:10 UTC
Permalink
I added a very short comment about using SVG as an export format and
bringing Inkscape and Scribus into the map production tool chain.
Inkscape and Scribus are both great programs and I think they are both
written in C++. (I wish they were written in Java.) :]

I'm in the process of adding functionality to OpenJUMP that will allow
the user great control over the export of vector graphics in SVG format.
The idea is to use Inkscape to style the exported SVG and Scribus to
layout the final map.

Landon

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Arnulf Christl
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:46 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions; standards-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools
for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch.
There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc
which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and
certainly of programming language compatibility.
Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas.
Markus,
There is definitely a need for better cartographic quality output options.
The wiki page did not seem to touch on cartographic surround and "map
composition" which I think is really a major whole currently. That is
putting together a product suitable for printing as a map with titles,
legends, and map surround components all appropriately and
professionally
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
styled. I have added a brief note on this. Is this an objective of the
proposed effort?
Also, I think, it is a very important question to decide what output
format is the primary target. That is, whether the objective is to produce
products in postscript/pdf with the vector and text preserved in a
non-rasterized format. The alternative is to produce a raster
product,
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
with us using something like AGG+freetype to render all vector and
text content as part of the process.
Hi,
coming from boring old standards land I wanted to add that we have
started a change request to WMS that allows to add a resolution
parameter to request for images used in high quality prints. Current
discussion is focusing on a parameter called PIXEL_SIZE which will allow
to request maps that have a pixel size smaller than the standard 0.28 mm
(~72dpi). We don't want to miss the rise of cartography in web
mapping...

Regards, Arnulf.
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
While I generally think making postscript/pdf our primary target
would give the most professional product, it will also likely be
harder work, and will require skills that are less common in our
developer community. If we did the direct-to-raster approach we can
build on quite a bit of AGG rendering expertise in the mapserver,
mapguide and mapnik communities for instance.
I've also suggested under programming languages that the library be
implemented in C++ but with a C API for external interface to the
library. This model has proven valuable for GDAL as a way to present
a less fragile interface to the outside world, making it easier to
keep the library less tightly bound to the calling application.
BTW, would it be an objective to be able to show the map to the user
as it is being composed? Knowing this may well affect above
decisions.
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
For instance, if the library produces PDF this could be pretty
challenging
Post by Jeroen Ticheler
to use in an interactive map composer application.
Best regards,
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss-***@public.gmane.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


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Brent Fraser
2008-04-07 15:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Markus,

Excellent! Here are some Use Cases to get the creative
juices flowing:

Use Cases:
----------
I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping)
1. Good-looking web maps (more control of grid/graticule
labeling)

II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI)
1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically
providing
grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description
- provide an API to exiting GIS apps?

III. Automated Mapping (script driven)
1. Map Series (single page, identical layout)
2. Map Atlas (mostly map with some text, multi-page)
3. Map-centric documents (mostly text with some map,
multi-page)
4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit
page)

Brent Fraser
GeoAnalytic Inc.
Calgary, Alberta

----- Original Message -----
From: "Markus Neteler" <neteler-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "OSGeo-discuss" <discuss-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic
Library
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic
Library" to
Post by Markus Neteler
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing
tools
Post by Markus Neteler
for high quality output but these projects should not
start from scratch.
Post by Markus Neteler
There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver,
Mapguide etc
Post by Markus Neteler
which could be re-used in the terms of their respective
licenses and
Post by Markus Neteler
certainly of programming language compatibility.
Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas.
Markus
--
Open Source Geospatial Foundation
http://www.osgeo.org/
http://www.grassbook.org/
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Tim Michelsen
2008-04-07 16:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent Fraser
III. Automated Mapping (script driven)
1. Map Series (single page, identical layout)
Just would like to add creationg of index maps that give overviews on
smaller areas:
a country wide idex map and then map 1,2,3,... for each federal state.
Like those pages at the begining of a printed atlas.
Rushforth, Peter
2008-04-08 18:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

This is an interesting discussion!

In the XML world, the answer to graphics rendering is SVG + XSL-FO,
generated by XSLT scripts according to styling rules. XSL-FO
is then rendered via a formatting objects processor, like Apache FOP.

I'm of the opinion that a pipeline like:

GML +/- (any XML data) + SLD/FE + WMS graphics => XSLT => SVG+XSL-FO -> pdf, (?geopdf anyone?)

would make for a killer map scripting environment. Plus, it has the
added benefit of being based on standards or de facto standards
across the board, with open source solutions available in each
area.

I will sign up for the discussion too!

Cheers,
Peter Rushforth
Technology Advisor / Conseiller technique
GeoConnections / GéoConnexions
650-615 Booth St. / rue Booth
Ottawa ON K1A 0E9
E-mail / Courriel: Peter.Rushforth-S5DwefOtGR0sA/***@public.gmane.org
Phone / Télephone: (613) 943-0784
Fax / telecopier: (613) 947-2410
Post by Frank Warmerdam
----------
I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping) 1. Good-looking
web maps (more control of grid/graticule
labeling)
II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI)
1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically
providing grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description
- provide an API to exiting GIS apps?
III. Automated Mapping (script driven)
1. Map Series (single page, identical layout) 2. Map Atlas
(mostly map with some text, multi-page) 3. Map-centric
documents (mostly text with some map,
multi-page)
4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit
page)
Brent Fraser
GeoAnalytic Inc.
Calgary, Alberta
Michael P. Gerlek
2008-04-08 18:58:43 UTC
Permalink
(Is GeoPDF open now? I was under the impression that they were claiming IP in there, but my info is a couple years old.)

-mpg
Post by Fee, James
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:56 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Hi,
This is an interesting discussion!
In the XML world, the answer to graphics rendering is SVG + XSL-FO,
generated by XSLT scripts according to styling rules. XSL-FO
is then rendered via a formatting objects processor, like Apache FOP.
GML +/- (any XML data) + SLD/FE + WMS graphics => XSLT =>
SVG+XSL-FO -> pdf, (?geopdf anyone?)
would make for a killer map scripting environment. Plus, it has the
added benefit of being based on standards or de facto standards
across the board, with open source solutions available in each
area.
I will sign up for the discussion too!
Cheers,
Peter Rushforth
Technology Advisor / Conseiller technique
GeoConnections / GéoConnexions
650-615 Booth St. / rue Booth
Ottawa ON K1A 0E9
Phone / Télephone: (613) 943-0784
Fax / telecopier: (613) 947-2410
Post by Frank Warmerdam
----------
I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping) 1. Good-looking
web maps (more control of grid/graticule
labeling)
II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI)
1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically
providing grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description
- provide an API to exiting GIS apps?
III. Automated Mapping (script driven)
1. Map Series (single page, identical layout) 2. Map Atlas
(mostly map with some text, multi-page) 3. Map-centric
documents (mostly text with some map,
multi-page)
4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit
page)
Brent Fraser
GeoAnalytic Inc.
Calgary, Alberta
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Rushforth, Peter
2008-04-08 19:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Michael,
Post by Michael P. Gerlek
(Is GeoPDF open now? I was under the impression that they
were claiming IP in there, but my info is a couple years old.)
Not that I know of. Maybe one day?

In the meantime, the pipeline still has what it takes to generate
good map series:

GML +/- (any XML data) + SLD/FE + WMS graphics => XSLT => SVG+XSL-FO ->
any output format
supported by the formatting objects processor.

Cheers
Peter
Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo)
2008-04-07 16:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Markus Neteler
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
Thanks Markus - you beat me to it! :)

Having grown up learning ArcPlot, I long for the ability to compose
maps and output them in a high-quality plotter-ready format. Also, I
miss the ability to script the creation of maps which is needed in
many industrial or highly-productive mapping environments (e.g. GUI-
based map design tools are the bane of productivity in many offices
I've been in).

I'll add my notes to the wiki and start to use the discussion page too.

Tyler
Paulo Marcondes
2008-04-07 17:11:05 UTC
Permalink
GUI-based map design tools are
the bane of productivity in many offices I've been in
Spot on!
--
Paulo Marcondes = PU1/PU2PIX
-22.915 -42.224 = GG86jc
Fee, James
2008-04-07 18:47:43 UTC
Permalink
It is interesting that at ArcGIS 9.4, ESRI is going to release the
ability to script map production with python, much like how the old
ArcPlot used to work.

This is a wonderful idea Markus!

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell
(OSGeo)
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:36 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Post by Markus Neteler
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
Thanks Markus - you beat me to it! :)

Having grown up learning ArcPlot, I long for the ability to compose
maps and output them in a high-quality plotter-ready format. Also, I
miss the ability to script the creation of maps which is needed in
many industrial or highly-productive mapping environments (e.g. GUI-
based map design tools are the bane of productivity in many offices
I've been in).

I'll add my notes to the wiki and start to use the discussion page too.

Tyler
Gavin Fleming
2008-04-07 20:18:19 UTC
Permalink
More use-case driven development and improved GUIs, user experience and map production fall under specific topics at FOSS4G 2008 so this discussion is quite apt and I hope to see its fruit or at least some well-defined plans presented and discussed in Cape Town in September. As we know these are some of the remaining gaps that need filling to convince the hesitant masses to go open source.

Gavin Fleming MSc, Pr. GISc Technologist
Senior GISc and Sustainable Development Researcher
FOSS4G2008 conference chair
Mintek, 200 Malibongwe Drive (formerly Hans Strijdom Drive)
P/Bag X3015, Randburg, 2125, South Africa
w: +27-11-709-4668 c: 0845965680 f: 0866164820
xmpp (Jabber, Google Talk, etc.): gavinjfleming-***@public.gmane.org
Skype: phlemingo
27.9782E 26.0896S

________________________________

From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org on behalf of Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo)
Sent: Mon 2008/04/07 06:36 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Post by Markus Neteler
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
Thanks Markus - you beat me to it! :)

Having grown up learning ArcPlot, I long for the ability to compose
maps and output them in a high-quality plotter-ready format. Also, I
miss the ability to script the creation of maps which is needed in
many industrial or highly-productive mapping environments (e.g. GUI-
based map design tools are the bane of productivity in many offices
I've been in).

I'll add my notes to the wiki and start to use the discussion page too.

Tyler
Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo)
2008-04-08 16:19:44 UTC
Permalink
I've tried to group some of discussion into various components that I
think are being discussed all at once:

8.1 Style & Layout Configuration Standards
8.2 Graphical Style & Layout Editor
8.3 Graphical Map Composition Editor
8.4 Rendering Engine
8.5 Libraries

I'm personally less interested in the GUI side than I am about
standards and the rendering engine that understands those
standards. Does this fit the initial vision you are presenting Markus?

Tyler
RAVI KUMAR
2008-04-09 02:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,
among the OS GIS we are trying Map Layouts especially for Geoscience

1. using OpenJUMP where in tools are present for rotating Geological structural symbols. We have even printed to judge the accuracy of scale.
2. Shape file to SVG is a convenient option to color the final output in Inkscape.

putting all the options together on a WIKI will be splendid.
Cheers
Ravi Kumar

"Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo)" <tmitchell-***@public.gmane.org> wrote: I've tried to group some of discussion into various components that I
think are being discussed all at once:

8.1 Style & Layout Configuration Standards
8.2 Graphical Style & Layout Editor
8.3 Graphical Map Composition Editor
8.4 Rendering Engine
8.5 Libraries

I'm personally less interested in the GUI side than I am about
standards and the rendering engine that understands those
standards. Does this fit the initial vision you are presenting Markus?

Tyler
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss-***@public.gmane.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



---------------------------------
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Ari Jolma
2008-04-13 08:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
I proposed a year ago to develop a geospatial graphics library based on
Cairo
http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/2007-April/003142.html

I'm still very much interested in this. Cairo would provide a single API
to render to an image buffer, on PDF and others. It has good support for
rendering text with various fonts and there are high-level language APIs.

Currently Cairo can be used in Geoinformatica to render geodata,
legends, etc. on a map. I'm already using that a bit and will use it
much more in the future.

What I think is needed first, and would be the core content of the
library is 1) a mapping of style information into Cairo commands, 2)
capability to render cartographic symbols on maps, and 3) a mechanism to
allow plugins that add legends etc. on the map, 4) symbol and label
placement algorithms. Second need would perhaps be support for various
geovisualization methods.

1) is rather straight-forward, I guess, using OGC Styled Layers standard
2) I'm not sure, there seems to be free resources like
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1999/of99-430/ which offer symbols in EPS -- I
don't find support in Cairo to render EPS on surfaces
3) is rather straight-forward
4) start from simple and existing codes

Cairo is of course just one technology and not suited for all needs in
this domain. Furthermore, the data provider can be made separate from
the library, but I'd like to start with and use GDAL (OGR in fact) as
the default.

Anyway, I'd like to finally get going with this and start drafting an
API. Any ideas how to proceed? Set up a svn repository somewhere?

Regards,

Ari
--
Prof. Ari Jolma
Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics
Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology
tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland
Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma
Christopher Schmidt
2008-04-13 12:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
I'm still very much interested in this. Cairo would provide a single API
to render to an image buffer, on PDF and others. It has good support for
rendering text with various fonts and there are high-level language APIs.
Currently Cairo can be used in Geoinformatica to render geodata,
legends, etc. on a map. I'm already using that a bit and will use it
much more in the future.
I think that for the task you've described, looking into Mapnik might
be a good idea.
Post by Ari Jolma
What I think is needed first, and would be the core content of the
library is 1) a mapping of style information into Cairo commands, 2)
capability to render cartographic symbols on maps, and 3) a mechanism to
allow plugins that add legends etc. on the map, 4) symbol and label
placement algorithms. Second need would perhaps be support for various
geovisualization methods.
1), 2), and 4) already exist in Mapnik. 3) seems to me like it can
either be added to Mapnik, or added via post-processing, without needing
to reimplement 1), 2) or 4).
Post by Ari Jolma
Cairo is of course just one technology and not suited for all needs in
this domain. Furthermore, the data provider can be made separate from
the library, but I'd like to start with and use GDAL (OGR in fact) as
the default.
Mapnik has support for PostGIS and Shapefiles, but has a plugin-based
architecture for reading data, so I would not be surprised to find that
an OGR plugin for data access would be too difficult for someone
experienced in C++/C.
Post by Ari Jolma
Anyway, I'd like to finally get going with this and start drafting an
API. Any ideas how to proceed? Set up a svn repository somewhere?
I'd strongly recommend starting by looking at existing solutions.

Regards,
--
Christopher Schmidt
Web Developer
Markus Neteler
2008-04-13 15:58:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Christopher Schmidt <
Post by Christopher Schmidt
Post by Ari Jolma
I'm still very much interested in this. Cairo would provide a single API
to render to an image buffer, on PDF and others. It has good support for
rendering text with various fonts and there are high-level language
APIs.
Post by Ari Jolma
Currently Cairo can be used in Geoinformatica to render geodata,
legends, etc. on a map. I'm already using that a bit and will use it
much more in the future.
I think that for the task you've described, looking into Mapnik might
be a good idea.
Some more is here:
http://grass.osgeo.org/grass63/manuals/html63_user/cairodriver.html

Markus
Traian Stanev
2008-04-13 15:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Hello Ari,
Post by Fee, James
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:19 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library" to
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library
I proposed a year ago to develop a geospatial graphics library based on
Cairo
http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/2007-April/003142.html
I'm still very much interested in this. Cairo would provide a single API
to render to an image buffer, on PDF and others. It has good support for
rendering text with various fonts and there are high-level language APIs.
Currently Cairo can be used in Geoinformatica to render geodata,
legends, etc. on a map. I'm already using that a bit and will use it
much more in the future.
What I think is needed first, and would be the core content of the
library is 1) a mapping of style information into Cairo commands, 2)
capability to render cartographic symbols on maps, and 3) a mechanism to
allow plugins that add legends etc. on the map, 4) symbol and label
placement algorithms. Second need would perhaps be support for various
geovisualization methods.
1) is rather straight-forward, I guess, using OGC Styled Layers standard
2) I'm not sure, there seems to be free resources like
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1999/of99-430/ which offer symbols in EPS -- I
don't find support in Cairo to render EPS on surfaces
3) is rather straight-forward
4) start from simple and existing codes
Cairo is of course just one technology and not suited for all needs in
this domain. Furthermore, the data provider can be made separate from
the library, but I'd like to start with and use GDAL (OGR in fact) as
the default.
Have you looked at the MapGuide rendering engine? It uses AGG as backend (AGG is faster and looks better than Cairo), however, the underlying graphics library is isolated via an interface and can be changed -- until last release we used GD in fact. We also have KML output for MapGuide using the same rendering interface.

In addition, MapGuide also has a style engine on top of the renderer, which can layout user-defined point, line and polygon styles. It also has a font layout component that is used for labeling things like paths and also for making sure labels don't overlap, etc. See MapGuide RFC 14 for some examples (http://trac.osgeo.org/mapguide/wiki/MapGuideRfc14).

The data input for MapGuide is FDO, however, that is also done via an interface which can be implemented on top of other data sources (OGR).

The engine is designed for interactive rendering speeds.


Traian
Post by Fee, James
Anyway, I'd like to finally get going with this and start drafting an
API. Any ideas how to proceed? Set up a svn repository somewhere?
Regards,
Ari
--
Prof. Ari Jolma
Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics
Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology
tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland
Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Dave Patton
2008-04-13 16:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Markus Neteler
Dear OSGeo,
I would like to launch the idea of an "OSGeo Cartographic Library"
3) a mechanism to allow plugins that add legends etc. on the map
3) is rather straight-forward
Actually, dealing with "the legend", or the contents
of the entire map collar, is non-trivial, however, a
library that can render the content within a map's
neat line has all the tools necessary to be able to
render the map's collar. The difference may be that
there would need to be some additional functionality,
or different methods of calling the same underlying
functionality, in order to make the tasks involved
in composing the collar easy.
--
Dave Patton
CIS Canadian Information Systems
Victoria, B.C.

Degree Confluence Project:
Canadian Coordinator
Technical Coordinator
http://www.confluence.org/

OSGeo FOSS4G2007 conference:
Workshop Committee Chair
Conference Committee member
http://www.foss4g2007.org/

Personal website:
Maps, GPS, etc.
http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-13 16:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Patton
Actually, dealing with "the legend", or the contents
of the entire map collar, is non-trivial, however, a
library that can render the content within a map's
neat line has all the tools necessary to be able to
render the map's collar. The difference may be that
there would need to be some additional functionality,
or different methods of calling the same underlying
functionality, in order to make the tasks involved
in composing the collar easy.
If you make the map in PDF, you could provide the
legend as a floating annotation that can be moved
around by the user.
If you are using OCG, you also have the Optional
Content panel that can be used as a legend and that
can be used to make certain layers visible/invisible.

All this is fairly easy to achieve in PDF.
br,
Bruno
Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo)
2008-04-13 18:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruno Lowagie
If you make the map in PDF, you could provide the
legend as a floating annotation that can be moved
around by the user.
If you are using OCG, you also have the Optional
Content panel that can be used as a legend and that
can be used to make certain layers visible/invisible.
For me the question of PDF is not limited by number of pages, or
options that PDF offers, but whether or not it is an efficient format
for sharing cartographic information - for which, so far, I'd say it
fails miserably. How many times have I went to a municipal mapping
site only to find their maps are all in PDF - what a pain! It might
just be me though :)

Also, in the operational/industrial GIS map production environments
I've been in, we've needed easy ways to print and re-print maps
without having to open a viewer (and our printers didn't support PDF
natively - though I assume some do now). To print, I've focused on
native plotter file formats and/or Postscript since most plotters can
support it. Of course this isn't going to be good for web distribution.

For delivering digital files, I've often converted the PS files into
PDF but it's been far from ideal. I increasingly believe that web-
based tools are going to be the only option. So what about off-line
delivery? A CD or USB runable system is an interesting and more
effective way than a PDF in some cases, though of course both have
some memory overhead issues.

So, is it just me or does stuffing a 1:20,000 topo map into a PDF
makes a huge file that is virtually unusable unless you have
gigabytes of RAM and dual processors. Delivering a 40MB PDF to
client who is running an old computer doesn't bode well for your
service ;-)

For what it's worth,
Tyler
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-14 05:19:28 UTC
Permalink
For me the question of PDF is not limited by number of pages, or options
that PDF offers, but whether or not it is an efficient format for
sharing cartographic information - for which, so far, I'd say it fails
miserably. How many times have I went to a municipal mapping site only
to find their maps are all in PDF - what a pain! It might just be me
though :)
It depends on how they are made. Do they have a street index
that allows you to jump to the exact location when you click
on a streetname? Are they made out of raster images converted
to PDF or are they drawn using vector data?
Also, in the operational/industrial GIS map production environments I've
been in, we've needed easy ways to print and re-print maps without
having to open a viewer (and our printers didn't support PDF natively -
though I assume some do now). To print, I've focused on native plotter
file formats and/or Postscript since most plotters can support it. Of
course this isn't going to be good for web distribution.
There are ways to work around that print problem ;-)
For delivering digital files, I've often converted the PS files into PDF
but it's been far from ideal.
But then you get a 'flat' PDF without any interactivity.
I don't see any added value when you convert PS to PDF.
I increasingly believe that web-based
tools are going to be the only option. So what about off-line
delivery? A CD or USB runable system is an interesting and more
effective way than a PDF in some cases, though of course both have some
memory overhead issues.
So, is it just me or does stuffing a 1:20,000 topo map into a PDF makes
a huge file that is virtually unusable unless you have gigabytes of RAM
and dual processors. Delivering a 40MB PDF to client who is running an
old computer doesn't bode well for your service ;-)
Er... stuffing a 1:20,000 topo map. The fact that you mention 1:20,000
indicates that you are probably talking about raster images, not about
vector data. If you write the vector data to a PDF, all the data is
compressed. You get really small file sizes when compared to other
solutions.

In short: the major problem with PDF in the GIS world is a lack of
understanding of the Portable Document Format by people who are
specialized in GIS. Of course PDF sucks if you just stuff if with
raster images or use a PDF that was converted from PS. Even a FOP
generated PDF has no added value.

As soon as I have the time, I'll make you some examples.
br,
Bruno
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-14 05:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruno Lowagie
As soon as I have the time, I'll make you some examples.
My main problem is that I haven't been on a GIS project since 1997.
Can somebody provide me with some (completely free!) sample data:
- vector data with streets and street names in multiple languages
- vector data of some shapes (for instance a city, municipalities)
- some additional data, for instance: location of hotels, landmarks,...

If you provide me with such a data set, I'll make you a PDF and
show why I think PDF is an ideal format.

br,
Bruno
Jachym Cepicky
2008-04-14 05:50:09 UTC
Permalink
www.openstreetmap.org

j
Post by Bruno Lowagie
Post by Bruno Lowagie
As soon as I have the time, I'll make you some examples.
My main problem is that I haven't been on a GIS project since 1997.
- vector data with streets and street names in multiple languages
- vector data of some shapes (for instance a city, municipalities)
- some additional data, for instance: location of hotels, landmarks,...
If you provide me with such a data set, I'll make you a PDF and
show why I think PDF is an ideal format.
br,
Bruno
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
--
Jachym Cepicky
e-mail: jachym.cepicky gmail com
URL: http://les-ejk.cz
GPG: http://www.les-ejk.cz/pgp/jachym_cepicky-gpg.pub
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-14 06:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jachym Cepicky
www.openstreetmap.org
The site isn't working for me.

"While trying to retrieve the URL: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/
The following error was encountered:
* Read Error
The system returned:
(104) Connection reset by peer
An error condition occurred while reading data from the network. Please
retry your request."

All I need is a zip file with limited data of, for instance, a city.
Any city will do. As long is I just get the raw vector data and
a small explanation of how to use it.

With Open Street map, I don't have access to the help/wiki and my
first impression of the (blank) home page is that I'll have to
compile my own data set. I don't have time for that.

I don't ask you being 'PDF newbies' to read the PDF Reference
(1,200+ pages), but I'll be happy to explain every feature that
could be useful in a GIS application. In return I ask only one
favor: please give me some data I can use without doing any
extra "GIS" effort. I'm willing to write some Java code for free,
but I'm not a GIS developer (haven't done any GIS development in
the last 9 years).

best regards,
Bruno
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-14 06:49:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruno Lowagie
All I need is a zip file with limited data of, for instance, a city.
Any city will do. As long is I just get the raw vector data and
a small explanation of how to use it.
What I'd like to do with that data, is to provide some examples like
this one: http://itext.ugent.be/personal/interactive_city.pdf

This is an example made based on data I 'invented' myself. The streets
don't connect, the city isn't realistic, etc...

But there are some nice PDF features.

For instance: if you zoom in, a grid appears. It you zoom in further,
the grid disappears again.

On the left, you have a menu. With this menu you can CHANGE the language
of the street names. They are in English by default, but you can change
them into French or Dutch.

You also have menu options to visualize where to find hotels, museums,
etc... This is only a simple example. It would be easy to provide links
so that you go to the site of a restaurant when you click on on icon.

I could also have provided an alphabetical list of streets in the
bookmarks panel, so that when you click on a bookmark the map zooms
in to the street.

This is only a very simple example of what I think is nice about maps
in PDF. I'm definitely not talking about flat PDFs that contain nothing
more that raster data.

br,
Bruno
Paolo Cavallini
2008-04-14 07:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruno Lowagie
On the left, you have a menu. With this menu you can CHANGE the language
of the street names. They are in English by default, but you can change
them into French or Dutch.
You also have menu options to visualize where to find hotels, museums,
etc... This is only a simple example. It would be easy to provide links
so that you go to the site of a restaurant when you click on on icon.
All this does not show off in evince, however.
pc
--
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
Io voto per il software libero:
http://elezioni.softwarelibero.it/info/iniziativa
Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-14 08:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cavallini
All this does not show off in evince, however.
Evince is as they promote it "simply a document viewer."
It's not a full blown PDF viewer (well, maybe it is for
most users, but for me as an avid PDF user it isn't).
Evince doesn't support all the features that are explained
in the PDF Reference manual. OCG was introduced in PDF 1.5
(dating back from 2003). You will see the OCG layers in
Adobe Reader starting with version 6.0.
br,
Bruno
Paolo Cavallini
2008-04-14 08:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruno Lowagie
Evince is as they promote it "simply a document viewer."
It's not a full blown PDF viewer (well, maybe it is for
most users, but for me as an avid PDF user it isn't).
Evince doesn't support all the features that are explained
in the PDF Reference manual. OCG was introduced in PDF 1.5
(dating back from 2003). You will see the OCG layers in
Adobe Reader starting with version 6.0.
So the question is: is there a free (as speech) and Open Source full
blown PDF viewer?
I think OSGeo is about open source software.
Thanks.
pc
--
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
Io voto per il software libero:
http://elezioni.softwarelibero.it/info/iniziativa
Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-14 08:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cavallini
So the question is: is there a free (as speech) and Open Source full
blown PDF viewer?
I think OSGeo is about open source software.
I'm a F/OSS developer, so I'm going to use my standard answer:
"What's keeping you from adding OCG support to Evince?" *LOL*

My own library iText is 'free' as in 'free beer'; although it is
available under the MPL/LGPL it's supposed to be free as in 'free
speech' too, but I don't agree with the FSF argument that Licensed
Software (any license: GPL, LGPL, MPL,...) is free as in 'free speech'.
If it were, companies using iText wouldn't keep on harassing me about
the license (and about the fact that they don't like the MPL/LGPL).
If iText were really Free, they wouldn't have any reason for not
using iText.

I interpret the 'Free' in 'Free Software' as 'Free to pay for value'
(Google for 'Voluntary Economies'). But than again: companies like
Google for instance use iText in many different project but they've
never paid anything for using it.

That's why when people lecture me about 'Free Software' annoy me:
most of them USE F/OSS for free (as in Free Beer), but the number
of people CONTRIBUTING (*) source or PAYING for value is very limited.

(*) By the way: this is the list of people who contributed code to
the iText project: http://www.1t3xt.com/about/acknowledgments/index.php

br,
Bruno
Wolf Bergenheim
2008-04-14 08:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cavallini
Post by Bruno Lowagie
On the left, you have a menu. With this menu you can CHANGE the language
of the street names. They are in English by default, but you can change
them into French or Dutch.
You also have menu options to visualize where to find hotels, museums,
etc... This is only a simple example. It would be easy to provide links
so that you go to the site of a restaurant when you click on on icon.
All this does not show off in evince, however.
But it does work in Acrobat Reader 8, on Linux, however :)

--Wolf
--
<:3 )---- Wolf Bergenheim ----( 8:>
Markus Neteler
2008-04-14 11:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruno Lowagie
Post by Bruno Lowagie
As soon as I have the time, I'll make you some examples.
My main problem is that I haven't been on a GIS project since 1997.
- vector data with streets and street names in multiple languages
- vector data of some shapes (for instance a city, municipalities)
- some additional data, for instance: location of hotels, landmarks,...
If you provide me with such a data set, I'll make you a PDF and
show why I think PDF is an ideal format.
Here we go:

OSGeo Educational data set
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Edu_Data_Package_North_Carolina

Download at:
http://www.grassbook.org/data_menu3rd.php
Metadata and links to original data sources:
http://www.grassbook.org/ncexternal/nc_datalist.html
Image Gallery:
http://www.grassbook.org/gallery/

Enjoy,
Markus
Brent Fraser
2008-04-14 16:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Bruno,

Have a go with my favorite Canadian topographic map
(NTS:082H04, "Waterton Lakes" ):

Shapefiles:
http://ftp2.cits.rncan.gc.ca/pub/canvec/50k_shp/082/h/canvec_082h04_shp.zip
or
GML:
http://ftp2.cits.rncan.gc.ca/pub/canvec/50k_gml/082/h/canvec_082h04_gml.zip

If you want road names (with poor geometry) of the area
above, select Alberta for the Geography at:
http://geodepot.statcan.ca/Diss/2006Dissemination/Data/FRR_RNF_e.cfm

and for comparison, the scanned topographic map:
http://ftp2.cits.rncan.gc.ca/pub/canmatrix/50k_300dpi/082/h/canmatrix_082h04_tif.zip


The vector data is quite rich in geometry and attributes so
it should make a "killer" pdf.

Brent Fraser
GeoAnalytic Inc.
Calgary, Alberta

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruno Lowagie" <bruno-7/M+***@public.gmane.org>
To: "OSGeo Discussions" <discuss-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic
Library
Post by Bruno Lowagie
Post by Bruno Lowagie
As soon as I have the time, I'll make you some examples.
My main problem is that I haven't been on a GIS project
since 1997.
Post by Bruno Lowagie
Can somebody provide me with some (completely free!)
- vector data with streets and street names in multiple
languages
Post by Bruno Lowagie
- vector data of some shapes (for instance a city,
municipalities)
Post by Bruno Lowagie
- some additional data, for instance: location of hotels,
landmarks,...
Post by Bruno Lowagie
If you provide me with such a data set, I'll make you a
PDF and
Post by Bruno Lowagie
show why I think PDF is an ideal format.
br,
Bruno
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Ari Jolma
2008-04-14 17:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent Fraser
Bruno,
Have a go with my favorite Canadian topographic map
http://ftp2.cits.rncan.gc.ca/pub/canvec/50k_shp/082/h/canvec_082h04_shp.zip
Thanks for the pointer, that's a nice dataset. Opening these 39 layers
makes me ask why there's no style information? Pardon my ignorance on
digital cartography, but is it because of standards or something else?
How do Arc* tools do it?

I think that's one crucial point in this thread. We all do have our
favorite software and want-to-have-software for creating a map or
geovisualization from this. Maybe a common goal would be to write a
specification how to create a map from this data -- note that there is
an infinite number of maps that one could create. I'd like to have a
file or files associated with datasets like this, that I'd just open in
my favorite software and it'd show me a map and not data.

The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol set, which the
map description file would refer to and the software use when creating
the map.

Do I make any sense?

Cheers,

Ari
--
Prof. Ari Jolma
Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics
Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology
tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland
Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma
Brent Fraser
2008-04-14 18:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Ari,

Traditionally, there has been no widely adopted
vendor/system-independent format for specifying style
information. Hopefully now that there is an organization
(the OGC) addressing open standards for geographic data
(including styling: SLD) there will be more support for a
styling standard.

Wouldn't it be great if data suppliers delivered a .sld
(or something like it) with .shp? And Open Source software
like Quantum, gvSig, OpenJump, and Mapserver actual read the
styling and applied it?

Other comments below...
Brent Fraser
GeoAnalytic Inc.
Calgary, Alberta

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ari Jolma" <ari.jolma-RGpGn/***@public.gmane.org>
To: "OSGeo Discussions" <discuss-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic
Library
Post by Ari Jolma
Post by Brent Fraser
Bruno,
Have a go with my favorite Canadian topographic map
http://ftp2.cits.rncan.gc.ca/pub/canvec/50k_shp/082/h/canvec_082h04_shp.zip
Post by Ari Jolma
Thanks for the pointer, that's a nice dataset. Opening
these 39 layers
Post by Ari Jolma
makes me ask why there's no style information? Pardon my
ignorance on
Post by Ari Jolma
digital cartography, but is it because of standards or
something else?
Post by Ari Jolma
How do Arc* tools do it?
Arc* tools, like almost every other GIS tool, have their own
method (some kind of ESRI-specific XML-ish file?).
Post by Ari Jolma
I think that's one crucial point in this thread. We all do
have our
Post by Ari Jolma
favorite software and want-to-have-software for creating a
map or
Post by Ari Jolma
geovisualization from this. Maybe a common goal would be
to write a
Post by Ari Jolma
specification how to create a map from this data -- note
that there is
Post by Ari Jolma
an infinite number of maps that one could create. I'd like
to have a
Post by Ari Jolma
file or files associated with datasets like this, that I'd
just open in
Post by Ari Jolma
my favorite software and it'd show me a map and not data.
A very good goal. The great thing about default styling is
that it can produce a good looking map. You could then
change the styling if you want to (because without it you
HAVE to; what a productivity killer!).
Post by Ari Jolma
The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol
set, which the
Post by Ari Jolma
map description file would refer to and the software use
when creating
Post by Ari Jolma
the map.
That would be good too...
Post by Ari Jolma
Do I make any sense?
Yes!
Sampson, David
2008-04-14 19:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Hey folks,

Lots of good discussion going on around this proposed library.
From the sounds of it there are many different camps of thinking on this
subject which is great. Of course there are many approaches that can be
used.

Perhaps we might want to talk a little more about the high end user
needs and work backwards. For instance if the end user does not want
PDF's or has other requirements then symatical debate on the best PDF
engine may not be required right now.

There is an "end User Needs" section
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library#End_User_Needs
where PDF is only one required output.


For starters I think bringing the FOSS4G world into the world of
"cartographic product" production would be a huge jump. Whether is be
digital-digital or digital-paper. Being able to do this using many
applications and some custom API I think would keep flexibility open. So
if many libraries can be included, lets include them. We'll all have
different user requirements.

Of course staying standards based where possible would be ideal so using
context documents or SLD or something simmilar as an optional output
would increase up take.

As a final user product I would love to see something that ties easy
drag/drop, point and click interactive design interface with real time
screen refresh that could produce something akin to a Generic Maptool
Tools (http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/) script to produce a preview before
I print it. Of course having options to use java and python to script
workflows would suite the needs of power users who balk at GUI's.

I know that the seprate projects will be responsible for the GUI. If we
work backwards from the functionality of the GUI though I think we can
find the pieces we need. Infact producing a full cartographic map layout
in SCRIBUS or using it's technology might be the best way to not
reinvent the wheel for the end user.

Has anyone thught out the Pseudo code for the process? Posted on wiki
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library#Worflow

* read geo data
* geometries
* projection
* metadata (if required)
* apply styling
* feature to style coding
* Cartographic edits
* overide some of the geometry if required (eg roads don't run
through lakes)
* manual edits / retouching
* Produce other cartographic edits objects
* create suround
* create grids
* create legend
* create scale bar
* create north arrow
* Copyright notices from text file or DB
* Licensing notices from text fiel or DB
* Other
* Output size


La la la

I'll post this to the wiki, maybe flushing this step out will allow us
to match a library(ies) to a task(s).




Hopefully we don't get hung up too much on choosing a narrow selection
of libraries and keep the carto library itself quite open and flexible.

Just some thoughts.
Ari Jolma
2008-04-14 20:28:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brent Fraser
Ari,
Traditionally, there has been no widely adopted
vendor/system-independent format for specifying style
information. Hopefully now that there is an organization
(the OGC) addressing open standards for geographic data
(including styling: SLD) there will be more support for a
styling standard.
I looked around in the web a bit and found this:
http://utpjournals.metapress.com/content/b584484743vk910g/
(I don't have access to Cartographica so can't read this).

ESRI seems to have .mxd files, which is their map definition file. It's
a binary format and probably not documented. Then they have ArcXML (AXL)
which serves the same purpose () as Mapserver mapfiles. BTW, mapfile
format is a result of a lot of thought and practical experience. I
believe some tools (QGIS?) can export mapfiles (can they import them?).

OGC Styled Layer Descriptor specification does not impress me, and it's
WMS implementation specific.

GDAL has feature style specification:
http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has recently gained
some new interest.

In my work I deal a lot with scientific data and geovisualization type
of thing, and it would be very useful to be able to import and export
visualization information files from desktop apps. Sometimes the problem
solving could be based on shared development of such files.

Just thinking out loud,

Ari
--
Prof. Ari Jolma
Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics
Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology
tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland
Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma
Brent Fraser
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
ESRI seems to have .mxd files, which is their map definition file. It's
a binary format and probably not documented. Then they have ArcXML (AXL)
which serves the same purpose () as Mapserver mapfiles. BTW, mapfile
format is a result of a lot of thought and practical experience. I
believe some tools (QGIS?) can export mapfiles (can they import them?).
While I think it is ok to store styling information in a map definition
file, I think it should be used only if the user has applied their own
styling, different from the default supplied with the data.

Just like .prj files tag along to define the geometry of a geographic
dataset, a default style file (.OSF?!) should tag along to define the
default rendering.
Post by Ari Jolma
OGC Styled Layer Descriptor specification does not impress me, and it's
WMS implementation specific.
http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has recently gained
some new interest.
I missed that! Thanks for the link!
Post by Ari Jolma
In my work I deal a lot with scientific data and geovisualization type
of thing, and it would be very useful to be able to import and export
visualization information files from desktop apps. Sometimes the problem
solving could be based on shared development of such files.
Good point. For me the lack of default styling info is a major
productivity killer. Our users want to importl basemap data, then spend
their time solving geographic problems, not setting ROADS=RED,
RIVERS=BLUE, etc. If you are using styling to expose subtler patterns in
data, it's even more important to be able to share it.

Brent
Jason Birch
2008-04-14 21:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html
Hey, that's pretty cool. Almost JSON or WKT-like.

MapGuide has a similar XML-based stylization schema:

http://trac.osgeo.org/mapguide/wiki/MapGuideRfc14

Jason
Christopher Schmidt
2008-04-14 22:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
OGC Styled Layer Descriptor specification does not impress me, and it's
WMS implementation specific.
Huh? Why doesn't it impress you? It's the closest thing to a standard
that exists.

Some support for SLD exists in:
* MapServer
* GeoServer
* OpenLayers (and things which build on top of it)

(I'm sure others can add to this list.)

It is seperated from data (unlike mapfiles or mxd files).

It does a single job and (regardless of whether I think it does it well)
at least attempts to solve the problem in a generic way. The OpenLayers
Style/Rule/Filter framework is based on the same principles as SLD, and
in my experience, that is working well:
http://crschmidt.net/mapping/choropleth-canvas.html can be directly
mapped into SLD, so far as I can tell.

So, I'd like to understand: What's wrong with SLD?

Regards,
--
Christopher Schmidt
Web Developer
Christopher Schmidt
2008-04-14 22:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Schmidt
* MapServer
* GeoServer
* OpenLayers (and things which build on top of it)
* uDig (read/write and advanced mode for direct editing of XML)
* ArcMap -> SLD conversion
(http://arcmap2sld.geoinform.fh-mainz.de/ArcMap2SLDConverter_Eng.htm)
* Ionic RedSpider
* ArcGIS Server 9.3

Regards,
--
Christopher Schmidt
Web Developer
Jody Garnett
2008-04-15 02:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Actually the origional point was valid; SLD is pretty darn WMS specific.
That is why we got them to split it into two; SLD for the WMS concepts
of layers and so on; and SE for the really good part (FeatureTypeStyle
and friends).

For more fun and games drop by the osgeo standards email list and we can
leave these nice people alone.
Jody
(osgeo standards list - now with less epsg axis order flamewars)
Sampson, David
2008-04-15 11:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has
recently gained some new interest.
Well, GDAL is close to the FOSS4G community so why not start with this
and see where we can go? I think OSGEO even has some capable expertise
somewhere in the organization that may have a few thoughts (SMILE).

I'm interested in learning more if anyone has some experience. How could
this be incorporated into the worflow?

Cheers
Frank Warmerdam
2008-04-15 14:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sampson, David
Post by Ari Jolma
http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has
recently gained some new interest.
Well, GDAL is close to the FOSS4G community so why not start with this
and see where we can go? I think OSGEO even has some capable expertise
somewhere in the organization that may have a few thoughts (SMILE).
I'm interested in learning more if anyone has some experience. How could
this be incorporated into the worflow?
Dave,

In my opinion we would be better off starting with a widely accepted
standard like SLD as a basis of a feature styling standard rather than
the ideosyncratic OGR feature styling specification. If anything, I'd
like to phase out the OGR feature styling in favor of something else
more widely supported at some point in the future.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, warmerdam-e+***@public.gmane.org
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush | President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org
Ari Jolma
2008-04-15 15:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Warmerdam
In my opinion we would be better off starting with a widely accepted
standard like SLD as a basis of a feature styling standard
I'm right now looking at SVG. It is a full graphics description
language, but maybe the styling information could be somehow picked out
an reused for our purposes. SVG is becoming more popular and for example
many symbol sets (also mapping symbols) are already in SVG. Thus we'd
also need tools for parsing SVG.

If the stylings that are distributed with geodatasets are SVG, then
producing SVG maps would be easier, wouldn't it?

I'm using Cairo, so I looked for SVG -> Cairo tools. It seems that
Firefox does exactly that, but the functionality is deep in its code and
not a separate library. Other SVG->Cairo libraries seem to have died. I
haven't looked at SVG->AGG, SVG->Qt or others.

I've been able to whip up a very simple SVG to Cairo parser + renderer
in few hours (with Perl ;) but the SVG specs are rather large and
permissive for all kinds of funny things, which make parsing a bit of a
problem -- although it is XML. But what I made is good for simple symbols.

Cairo can produce SVG, so that's not a problem.

SVG styling documents are here: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/styling.html

Cheers,

Ari
--
Prof. Ari Jolma
Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics
Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology
tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland
Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma
Christopher Schmidt
2008-04-15 16:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
Post by Frank Warmerdam
In my opinion we would be better off starting with a widely accepted
standard like SLD as a basis of a feature styling standard
I'm right now looking at SVG. It is a full graphics description
language, but maybe the styling information could be somehow picked out
an reused for our purposes. SVG is becoming more popular and for example
many symbol sets (also mapping symbols) are already in SVG. Thus we'd
also need tools for parsing SVG.
SVG *isn't* a rule language: SVG is one possible output of taking a Rule
language (SLD), combining it with geography and attributes (GML,
Shapefile, what have you), and creating a final product.

Other products could include raster images (PNG, JPG), Other vector
formats (VML, Canvas in the browser, PDF, PS, .ai), or encodings into
things like KML.
Post by Ari Jolma
If the stylings that are distributed with geodatasets are SVG, then
producing SVG maps would be easier, wouldn't it?
I'm not sure this really makes sense.

SVG is a style language. SLD is a Rule language. SLD is the source: SVG
is the destination (one of many).

Regards,
--
Christopher Schmidt
Web Developer
Bart van den Eijnden (OSGIS)
2008-04-15 16:47:39 UTC
Permalink
One addition to what Chris points out, to complicate things :-), SVG
vector symbols can also be used inside an SLD document (for a Mark).

To be even more precise, we are really talking about the Symbology
Encoding (SE) spec here. SLD as of version 1.1 only deals with the
integration of symbology encoding into WMS. Symbology (and the rules)
was taken out of SLD since it is more generic than only WMS. But most
current implementations still use SLD 1.0 where all is in one spec.

http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/symbol

Best regards,
Bart
Post by Christopher Schmidt
Post by Ari Jolma
Post by Frank Warmerdam
In my opinion we would be better off starting with a widely accepted
standard like SLD as a basis of a feature styling standard
I'm right now looking at SVG. It is a full graphics description
language, but maybe the styling information could be somehow picked out
an reused for our purposes. SVG is becoming more popular and for example
many symbol sets (also mapping symbols) are already in SVG. Thus we'd
also need tools for parsing SVG.
SVG *isn't* a rule language: SVG is one possible output of taking a Rule
language (SLD), combining it with geography and attributes (GML,
Shapefile, what have you), and creating a final product.
Other products could include raster images (PNG, JPG), Other vector
formats (VML, Canvas in the browser, PDF, PS, .ai), or encodings into
things like KML.
Post by Ari Jolma
If the stylings that are distributed with geodatasets are SVG, then
producing SVG maps would be easier, wouldn't it?
I'm not sure this really makes sense.
SVG is a style language. SLD is a Rule language. SLD is the source: SVG
is the destination (one of many).
Regards,
--
Bart van den Eijnden
OSGIS, Open Source GIS
bartvde-b9n8q0cb+***@public.gmane.org
http://www.osgis.nl
Ari Jolma
2008-04-15 18:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bart van den Eijnden (OSGIS)
One addition to what Chris points out, to complicate things :-), SVG
vector symbols can also be used inside an SLD document (for a Mark).
To be even more precise, we are really talking about the Symbology
Encoding (SE) spec here. SLD as of version 1.1 only deals with the
integration of symbology encoding into WMS. Symbology (and the rules)
was taken out of SLD since it is more generic than only WMS. But most
current implementations still use SLD 1.0 where all is in one spec.
http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/symbol
Thanks, I did not know about this. Looks interesting, combines SVG
styles and even symbols. Lots of focus on the rules, i.e., rendering
based on features properties and map scales.

This is an XML schema, (how) does it help us with concretizing the map
composer / cartographic library idea? What's the software that the
library implies, gonna do?
Post by Bart van den Eijnden (OSGIS)
SVG *isn't* a rule language: SVG is one possible output of taking a Rule
language (SLD), combining it with geography and attributes (GML,
Shapefile, what have you), and creating a final product.
One more example of how we talk about different things. In my problems
the interaction is perhaps more important than final products. I think
of SVG as a technology of getting the current problem/idea/plan/desing
on the screen.

Cheers,


Ari
--
Prof. Ari Jolma
Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics
Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology
tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland
Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma
Sampson, David
2008-04-14 18:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
Thanks for the pointer, that's a nice dataset. Opening these
39 layers makes me ask why there's no style information?
Pardon my ignorance on digital cartography, but is it because
of standards or something else?
How do Arc* tools do it?
Think of three separate boxes. One is tabulart data (tables), in the
ESRI world these are youf *.dbf files, another is geomatery (lines,
points, polygons) found in your *.shp files and the final box is the
styling (realy schnzy shirts and ties) equivalent to SLD in the open
source web mapping world but ESRI also has their cartographic
representations layer (or something like that).

Often in digital geomatics we focus on the data and geometry. Usualy
they apear seamlessly the SHP is connected to the DBF. So now we are
talking about adding in the third box in a standards compliant,
interoperable and open source manner (I am assuming)...

Why do you arc tools have styling?. Perhaps someone has created the
styling as is often the "Value add" portion to data resellers like DMTI.
But the styling is based on the data... So it has nothing to do with the
data and relatively nothing to do with the software as GRASS, QGIS,
JUMP, UDIG, MAPSERVER can all save projects with various styling, they
just don't all use the same approach. Some approaches like SLD's (Styled
layer descriptor) or context documents (maybe not full styling) help
with this.

I think these issues are a PART of this proposed library but I don't
think is the focus as styling is covered with SLD and context documents
etc.

Cheers
Kostantinos Vassiliadis
2008-04-14 20:06:41 UTC
Permalink
yeah

________________________________

From: discuss-bounces-***@public.gmane.org on behalf of Sampson, David
Sent: Mon 14/04/2008 21:28
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Post by Ari Jolma
Thanks for the pointer, that's a nice dataset. Opening these
39 layers makes me ask why there's no style information?
Pardon my ignorance on digital cartography, but is it because
of standards or something else?
How do Arc* tools do it?
Think of three separate boxes. One is tabulart data (tables), in the
ESRI world these are youf *.dbf files, another is geomatery (lines,
points, polygons) found in your *.shp files and the final box is the
styling (realy schnzy shirts and ties) equivalent to SLD in the open
source web mapping world but ESRI also has their cartographic
representations layer (or something like that).

Often in digital geomatics we focus on the data and geometry. Usualy
they apear seamlessly the SHP is connected to the DBF. So now we are
talking about adding in the third box in a standards compliant,
interoperable and open source manner (I am assuming)...

Why do you arc tools have styling?. Perhaps someone has created the
styling as is often the "Value add" portion to data resellers like DMTI.
But the styling is based on the data... So it has nothing to do with the
data and relatively nothing to do with the software as GRASS, QGIS,
JUMP, UDIG, MAPSERVER can all save projects with various styling, they
just don't all use the same approach. Some approaches like SLD's (Styled
layer descriptor) or context documents (maybe not full styling) help
with this.

I think these issues are a PART of this proposed library but I don't
think is the focus as styling is covered with SLD and context documents
etc.

Cheers
Markus Neteler
2008-04-14 19:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol set, which the
map description file would refer to and the software use when creating the
map.
Do I make any sense?
Absolutely.
I have created a wiki page for this, too:

http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_map_symbol_set

First symbol sets are already available (see there for links).

Markus
Paolo Cavallini
2008-04-21 07:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ari Jolma
The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol set, which
the map description file would refer to and the software use when
creating the map.
Do I make any sense?
Absolutely.
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_map_symbol_set
First symbol sets are already available (see there for links).
What about creating also one or more free sets of icons, to be reused
by various desktop & web clients?
pc
--
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
Bruno Lowagie
2008-04-13 11:10:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
this mail was forwarded to me, and I immediately subscribed to
the mailing list to set something straight.
Post by Rushforth, Peter
In the XML world, the answer to graphics rendering is SVG + XSL-FO,
generated by XSLT scripts according to styling rules. XSL-FO
is then rendered via a formatting objects processor, like Apache FOP.
OK, but... you do know that this is only true for small datasets.
For large datasets FOP is a bad choice performance wise.
For instance: if you have to convert an XML to a PDF and you
expect the end result to be 50 pages, Apache FOP might be a
good choice. If you expect 10,000+ pages, then it's a bad choice.

A document with 10,000+ pages is not as unusual as most PDF newbies
think. I've just created a PDF with 28,500 pages; each page is
a letter to one of the 28,500 students of Ghent University.
I've heard from banks that create PDFs with 100,000+ pages.
In this case, I use iText (obviously: I'm the developer of iText):
http://www.lowagie.com/iText/

iText is used by Google, NASA, DoD,... It's purpose is to create
all kinds of PDF files as fast as possible.
Post by Rushforth, Peter
GML +/- (any XML data) + SLD/FE + WMS graphics => XSLT => SVG+XSL-FO ->
pdf, (?geopdf anyone?)
XSLT? XSL-FO? What a performance killer!
Post by Rushforth, Peter
would make for a killer map scripting environment. Plus, it has the
added benefit of being based on standards or de facto standards
across the board, with open source solutions available in each
area.
Post by Frank Warmerdam
----------
I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping) 1. Good-looking
web maps (more control of grid/graticule
labeling)
FOP doesn't support all PDF features.
For instance: I've made a map in PDF that shows a raster image
when you first open it. Then when you zoom in, the PDF automatically
switches to vector data.

FOP doesn't support OCG! iText does!
OCG = Optional Content Groups: meaning you can turn on and
off layers in a PDF file. For instance: you could add street
names to a map in English en French and define the OCG so that
only one language at a time is shown.
Post by Rushforth, Peter
Post by Frank Warmerdam
II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI)
1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically
providing grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description
- provide an API to exiting GIS apps?
FOP isn't fast enough to create detailed PDFs on the fly.
Post by Rushforth, Peter
Post by Frank Warmerdam
III. Automated Mapping (script driven)
1. Map Series (single page, identical layout) 2. Map Atlas
(mostly map with some text, multi-page) 3. Map-centric
documents (mostly text with some map,
multi-page)
4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit
page)
With iText you have direct access to all PDF operators and
operands. you can draw every shape you want.

Please download chapter 1 of my book:
http://1t3xt.com/docs/book.php#free
There's an example of a map of a (fictive) city.
I hope you'll find it very interesting!
br,
Bruno
Rushforth, Peter
2008-04-14 16:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bruno,
Post by Bruno Lowagie
OK, but... you do know that this is only true for small datasets.
For large datasets FOP is a bad choice performance wise.
For instance: if you have to convert an XML to a PDF and you
expect the end result to be 50 pages, Apache FOP might be a
good choice. If you expect 10,000+ pages, then it's a bad choice.
I don't know of a map being more than one or two pages.
A map series could be treated as a group of one-page documents.
Granted a map can have a *lot* of detail on it. See comments wrt
to using WMS for graphics rendering, below.
Post by Bruno Lowagie
XSLT? XSL-FO? What a performance killer!
Post by Frank Warmerdam
----------
I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping) 1.
Good-looking web maps
Post by Frank Warmerdam
(more control of grid/graticule
labeling)
XSLT is pretty reasonable for many tasks. Saxon is the
leading XSLT processor today, written in java and .net.

In addition, if graphics intensive processing is done in a
distributed way (WMS), the integration stage should be less
onerous. Having the flexibility of XSLT scripting at that point is
a great advantage over java etc coding, IMHO.
Post by Bruno Lowagie
FOP doesn't support all PDF features.
For instance: I've made a map in PDF that shows a raster
image when you first open it. Then when you zoom in, the PDF
automatically switches to vector data.
FOP doesn't support OCG! iText does!
OCG = Optional Content Groups: meaning you can turn on and
off layers in a PDF file. For instance: you could add street
names to a map in English en French and define the OCG so
that only one language at a time is shown.
This appears to be new in PDF 1.5? Could an *open* version
of a pdf mapping format be based on such behaviour? Just a
thought. Apache FOP targets support of PDF 1.4 - although
perhaps it is not even possible to theoretically support
PDF 1.5 using XSL-FO yet. Interactive layer control
doesn't really matter for printing though, but obviously useful
in context.
Post by Bruno Lowagie
Post by Frank Warmerdam
II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI) 1.
Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically providing
grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description
- provide an API to exiting GIS apps?
FOP isn't fast enough to create detailed PDFs on the fly.
Respectfully disagree - I think it would depend on what you are
expecting to do in your xsl-fo creation process. If you make
your XSLT engine do all the graphics creation, perhaps you
are right. However if you draw on WMS servers to do the
heavy lifting, leaving the decoupage, scalebar, north arrow, surround
text,
legend etc calculations to XSLT, you would have the best of
both worlds - performant graphics processing with the flexibility
of a standard XML scripting language. GUI application could be
done with a thick client, allowing on-the-fly interactive template
creation to generate custom maps / map series based on remote services.

The styling "rules" (xslt templates) which create the output could
be stored (perhaps in a database) and mixed-and-matched at design time
by
the GUI user to create a style through which data could be transformed
to viewable documents. The style itself could be captured as a whole
for re-use / modification / subclassing.
Post by Bruno Lowagie
http://1t3xt.com/docs/book.php#free
There's an example of a map of a (fictive) city.
I will check it out, thanks.

Why not join the wiki page for this discussion too:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library

Cheers,
Peter
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